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Favorite Anti-JB "Arguments"; for when you need a laugh
Topic Started: Jul 5 2014, 03:08 PM (220,121 Views)
glamaphonic
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Half a God
If you're on Tumblr, especially, you're well aware that periodically people seem to be unable to resist going into the JB tag and posting their thoughts on how terrible it is and how it is entirely made up and how we are all just misogynist Cersei-haters.

And while it is very rude of them and they obviously need some home training, I personally tend to find people's desperate grasping nonsensical arguments for why Jaime/Brienne isn't a thing and will never be a thing, despite all evidence to the contrary, quite funny. Not to mention, laughing about the lengths people will go to in their denial of the obvious is cathartic.

So, am I the only one who keeps a mental tally of the most outlandish and ridiculous things people pull out of their asses to try to deny even the barest hint of JB?

My all time fave is a tie between:

a) That time NCW was explicitly asked whether he preferred JB or JC and flatly stated that JB was his preference, yet somehow the interview was spread around Tumblr as "proof" that he ships JC,

and

b) Once when I saw someone reply to the Beauty and the Beast quote in "agreement" by talking about how amazing JB's "bromance" is since, as we all know, there is nothing more classic than the beautiful tale of platonic friendship between Beauty and the Beast.
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Mikki
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Glam,
I am not a big tumblr fan for lots of reasons, so I can't speak to much about tumblr. I have read a lot of the anti-JB arguments in other places. What I see mostly is the argument that they are just best friends and he is not attracted to her. That's soundly countered with his not-even-slightly platonic boner and goldslapping for Red Ronnet and tons of other things.

If Brienne weren't described repeatedly as ugly in the books, and she were just a pretty girl with low self esteem, no one would doubt that there is a romantic connection between Jaime and Brienne.

The show has been even more obvious about it with the longing looks and him walking after her as she left.

I'm frustrated by the idea that Jaime couldn't love her because she's ugly. As I walk through my day, I see hundred of ugly people who fall in love, are loved in return, get married and have children.

Love isn't shallow and I think GRRM is using Jaime and Brienne to show us that. Whether or not either of them survive Lady Stoneheart or if they end up together, we the viewers and readers, are supposed to see that they should be together.

So...maybe I have nothing to say on tumblr, but I said other things. STUFF. REASONS. OO look a squirrel!
Edited by Mikki, Jul 5 2014, 04:44 PM.
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tamjlee
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I think most people are not deep readers, this is not an insult because I surface read myself (there are a ton of things that I have missed from character pov's that I dont enjoy).So if someone is not particularly a fan of Jaime (and most aren't by the time his first pov occurs), there are a ton of subtle hints of attraction that they miss because he is overtly saying the opposite.

They miss how he stares at her legs and the way her muscles in her arms and back work as she is rowing.He calls many of her features ugly and places judgement on them but most of his other observations re:her body are benign and subjective to who is reading it.So if you are a reader who happens to find small breasts on a muscular frame ugly, you would interpret Jaime's honest description of them to be just another one of his insults when its just purely descriptive.Words like small, large, strong, freckled, etc are not by themselves judgemental we as readers place judgment on them.Jaime does say a lot of overt and colourful insults that are not subjective but are obviously judgemental and this makes his more positive or matter of fact statements get lost in the shuffle to a reader who is not invested in his character or the pairing.

When shippers have pulled out some book quotes that show that Jaime at the least is infatuated if not full on attracted to her body a lot of readers cant believe that they missed it and honestly think that they were doctored by the shippers.Jaime is very observant and he catalogues each and every part of her outer appearance, her skills, talents and personality.Its not a stretch to think that once he has marked every part of her that the sum of her parts override any one aspect that he finds unappealing.

When people read they put on so much of their own bias.So if you happen to be a person who thinks that small breasts, thick waist, broad, muscular shoulders and freckles are unappealing and that is added to her other descriptions that the author has overtly described as ugly, there is no way you would consider anyone being attracted to her.Also a lot of people are extremely narrow minded, tall can only date the tall, pretty can only be with pretty, nerds can only be with nerds etc so they cant fathom that these two could ever be in the same league.My argument to help those very label minded superficial fans who need everyone to fit their expectation, is to stop seeing one as gorgeous and one as ugly, see them as athlete with athlete so they are of the same ilk and they do in fact fit.
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glamaphonic
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I find the idea that a pairing can't happen because one is very beautiful and the other is very ugly hilarious in general, but particularly when we're discussing a book series written by a man who wrote for... Beauty and the Beast....

Like introducing Brienne literally being call The Beauty wasn't enough of a hint? All the stuff about what a magnificent beast Jaime is while in captivity was too subtle??? Brienne literally calling him a monster when they're first acquainted???

I am definitely down with the fact that people don't close read, but there's not close reading and then there's paying literally no attention at all because GRRM is NOT a subtle writer.
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Mikki
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My nephew, who is generally a great person, loves the books and doesn't see the Jaime/Brienne connection. However, he's young and I don't think he really identifies beauty yet. If I'm making sense. His idea of beauty at this stage of his life is still very superficial. He doesn't understand yet that when you love someone, they are beautiful in your eyes no matter their physical features.

Still, I want to choke him when we argue about it.
Edited by Mikki, Jul 5 2014, 07:11 PM.
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Amaryllis
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glamaphonic
Jul 5 2014, 03:08 PM
Once when I saw someone reply to the Beauty and the Beast quote in "agreement" by talking about how amazing JB's "bromance" is since, as we all know, there is nothing more classic than the beautiful tale of platonic friendship between Beauty and the Beast.
Oh yes! If the aren't openly aggressive, they go for passive aggressivity.

tamjlee
 
So if you are a reader who happens to find small breasts on a muscular frame ugly, you would interpret Jaime's honest description of them to be just another one of his insults when its just purely descriptive.
This. A lot of female athletes have small breasts and muscular frame and I've never noticed that it would prevent them from having boyfriends/husbands. Not all men are attracted to Pamela Anderson body types.


My favourite anti-J/B argument is that "she will never fall in love with him because he insulted her on their way from Riverrun". :laugh:
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meteor69
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My favorite argument that I read on tumblr, reddit and youtube: They are like brother and sister. :D
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glamaphonic
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I always think people are joking when they say they're "like brother and sister" as a reason not to ship them. But they never are.
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memorde
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My personal favourites are all the excuses that say "well because of the prophecy and all of these other intricate and subtle textual nuances that I've so cleverly picked up, we know that Jaime/Cersei is endgame and so Jaime/Brienne will never happen and if you ship it you're wrong." Like... how obvious is it that GRRM is slowly dismantling the J/C relationship? As mentioned, he's not one for subtlety, but I've seen some really detailed arguments that J/C are written in that stars that have never sat well with me. Not to diminish the importance of Cersei in Jaime's life, but to me using one ship as justification for disliking another is kind of like saying "green apples exist, so because I prefer green to red I think red apples are stupid and wrong and probably don't exist anyway."
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fseventh
Ser Cleos
My favorite argument is... (really this is just the best ever) when people said " Brienne is a strong woman. Making her loving Jaime is weakening her character ". Really, best shit ever.

Also the part where I "love" most is when they said "Brienne deserves a better guy." Like, seriously? Really? Are they "Brienne" ? Love is never to find someone "best" out there. So unless those people who said that are Brienne and know exactly what she feels... the argument is totally not valid.
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Olive
Red Leatherer
I try not to pay any mind to those who bash the J/B pairing and the fandom, but I generally just roll my eyes any time I do take the time to read what they have to say.

I haven't read the books, I'm a pure show-viewer only, but from what I read of book quotes/text it's obvious that they both have feelings for each other. The way Jaime keeps disparaging Brienne's looks actually makes me laugh, as it reminds me of what a teenage boy with a crush on a girl would do. Teenaged boys tend to pick on the girls they like in the most hateful ways, and that's what Jaime seems to resort to anytime he feels like he is getting a little too close.

As far as the show goes, it's pretty much been stated that they are dropping hints for a future romance between the two. Whether it comes to fruition or not is still up in the air, but comments by Michelle MacLaren in the DVD commentary for 3x07 and Minihan's for 3x02 give some weight to that. Not to mention what we can see unfold in the show ourselves. Oathkeeper was heavily prevalent in showcasing some more-than-friendly feelings there. GRRM slapped us over the head with it with Cersei's "But you love him?" to Brienne.

I don't know what's so hard for the J/C shippers to see. Yes Jaime is still lusting for his sister, but that doesn't undermine the growing relationship between him and Brienne. It's not a stretch to believe that J/B can become an item in the future.
Edited by Olive, Jul 5 2014, 11:32 PM.
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Mahari
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One thing about the descriptions of Brienne's physical features that struck home with me was the description, as already noted above, of her thick waist/broad shoulders, etc. I always imagined Brienne as having a swimmer's build based off of that, very much like a freestyle or butterfly specialist. She certainly would have had the shoulders and back for it with her weaponry training. When you think about Jaime's description in the social context of his time, it's entirely possible that anything other than a corseted, 24 inch waist would have been "thick". So what he's really coming across when he meets Brienne is a powerful athlete, not necessarily an unattractive body.
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Jules
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I haven't read the books either, so maybe I am missing something, but I'm always very confused when J/C shippers use the "Jaime as valonqar" theory to prove that J/C is endgame and Jaime/Brienne will never happen. If Jaime is in fact the valonqar, doesn't that just mean that he's going to kill Cersei? How does that negate the possibility of Jaime/Brienne? And why do so many J/C shippers want it to be true?? I find the whole thing really odd, but again maybe I am missing something.
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Amaryllis
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fseventh
Jul 5 2014, 10:59 PM
My favorite argument is... (really this is just the best ever) when people said " Brienne is a strong woman. Making her loving Jaime is weakening her character ". Really, best shit ever.

Also the part where I "love" most is when they said "Brienne deserves a better guy." Like, seriously? Really? Are they "Brienne" ? Love is never to find someone "best" out there. So unless those people who said that are Brienne and know exactly what she feels... the argument is totally not valid.
These two "arguments" just piss me off. Love weakens people? Since when? And what the hell do they mean by "strong woman"? Catelyn loved Ned & her children, was she weak? Don't even get me started on the second one. :mad:
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Amaryllis
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Olive
Jul 5 2014, 11:22 PM
The way Jaime keeps disparaging Brienne's looks actually makes me laugh, as it reminds me of what a teenage boy with a crush on a girl would do. Teenaged boys tend to pick on the girls they like in the most hateful ways, and that's what Jaime seems to resort to anytime he feels like he is getting a little too close.
True, I was subjected to this too :laugh: They are too afraid to confess/act on their true feelings, so they try to mask them while attempting to get the girl's attention.

Jaime has a long way to go in this regard, but showing Brienne respect is a start.
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glamaphonic
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Insulting and being aggro towards a person whilst simultaneously acting super caring/affectionate/protective about them is a classic trope, so much so that it consistently boggles me that people can't pick it up with Jaime or as I sometimes call him: Ser Tsundere.

The amount of reaction-formation Jaime engages in with regard to Brienne is off the charts literally from his first POV chapter. Once again, not subtle.

Jules
Jul 5 2014, 11:56 PM
I haven't read the books either, so maybe I am missing something, but I'm always very confused when J/C shippers use the "Jaime as valonqar" theory to prove that J/C is endgame and Jaime/Brienne will never happen. If Jaime is in fact the valonqar, doesn't that just mean that he's going to kill Cersei? How does that negate the possibility of Jaime/Brienne? And why do so many J/C shippers want it to be true?? I find the whole thing really odd, but again maybe I am missing something.


As I've been given to understand, they take the delusional "We were born together, so we'll die together!!!" thing that only Cersei still clings to by ADWD as Empirical Fact or some sort of Deep Foreshadowing (lol at the idea that characters explicitly describing a specific event in that manner is foreshadowing, but let's not get into that), in line with which I think they expect that Jaime will kill Cersei and then kill himself or let himself die out of despair. And it will be ~beautiful and tragic~.

It raises many, many questions/concerns starting with whether the people who believe this understand anything at all about Jaime (e.g. that he left Cersei to die already; that when he thinks about how returning to KL is also returning to Cersei it is primarily with dread, not anticipation which would be why he takes the first opportunity to NOT do that which presents itself) and ending with how anyone can convince themselves that JC is something that narrative intends the audience to invest in to the extent that such an ending would be a reasonable conclusion.
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glamaphonic
Jul 6 2014, 01:42 AM


Jules
Jul 5 2014, 11:56 PM
I haven't read the books either, so maybe I am missing something, but I'm always very confused when J/C shippers use the "Jaime as valonqar" theory to prove that J/C is endgame and Jaime/Brienne will never happen. If Jaime is in fact the valonqar, doesn't that just mean that he's going to kill Cersei? How does that negate the possibility of Jaime/Brienne? And why do so many J/C shippers want it to be true?? I find the whole thing really odd, but again maybe I am missing something.


As I've been given to understand, they take the delusional "We were born together, so we'll die together!!!" thing that only Cersei still clings to by ADWD as Empirical Fact or some sort of Deep Foreshadowing (lol at the idea that characters explicitly describing a specific event in that manner is foreshadowing, but let's not get into that), in line with which I think they expect that Jaime will kill Cersei and then kill himself or let himself die out of despair. And it will be ~beautiful and tragic~.

I love this thread. A place for me to vent, especially since I saw something in the Brienne tag yesterday ha.

But yes yes yes. I never understood why Jaime being volanqar = JAIME AND CERSEI 5EVERRR. How the hell is that proof that those two will be endgame? It just means he could be the one to kill her...

About the "we were born together, so we'll die together" I actually view that as a massive clue that they WON'T or else it would just be not suspenseful or climatic at all since it has been too obviously shoved in our faces since the beginning, so I'm assuming the opposite will happen. And it absolutely boggles my mind that people think JC, the most obvious and intentional unhealthy ship in the history of ships - and a a ship that has been there since book 1- is going to last at the end of a series by an author who loves to change things up and rip people apart. I'm convinced these people think they're reading a Stephenie Meyers book or they don't understand character development in the slightest.

(oh and all of the times the show AND GRRM has gone out of their way to plant the seeds for the Jaime and Brienne relationship)
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Jules
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glamaphonic
Jul 6 2014, 01:42 AM
As I've been given to understand, they take the delusional "We were born together, so we'll die together!!!" thing that only Cersei still clings to by ADWD as Empirical Fact or some sort of Deep Foreshadowing (lol at the idea that characters explicitly describing a specific event in that manner is foreshadowing, but let's not get into that), in line with which I think they expect that Jaime will kill Cersei and then kill himself or let himself die out of despair. And it will be ~beautiful and tragic~.


I have to say, it's pretty telling that the happiest ending J/C shippers can imagine is a murder/suicide :laugh: I guess you could say it's naive to expect any happy endings in this series- that's probably the best argument against J/B becoming canon, IMO- but personally I'd rather ship a couple where there's at least a slim chance for some kind of happiness down the line.
Edited by Jules, Jul 6 2014, 12:27 PM.
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and my jaw dropped to the floor when I found out people actually think Nikolaj ships JC when in literally every single interview he goes on about how unhealthy it is and how he wants Jaime to find someone else and then he fangirls over Brienne I just........ that is some straight up denial right there. Even Lena doesn't ship it, from what I've read? What shocks me is the amount of people that think this way, and in a way it's a little frightening that they not only cling to something that toxic, but that they cling so hard they twist interviews and selectively read in order to keep romanticizing it. I know a few J/C shippers who ship it because it's just entertaining and they wish those two could mature and grow together, and I'm perfectly fine with that because they at least acknowledge the reality. So I don't have a problem with people having different ship preferences, but it does get a little creepy when people don't recognize a ship for what it really is.

Sorry for my rant lol.. Because of my experiences with shipping extremely toxic ships in the past and havin it actually affect my rl, it really bothers me when people are aggressively anti-JB because they prefer the more toxic ship since it's "beautiful love." So I guess the argument that gets me is "but Jaime and Cersei are meant to be together. They were born together, they will die together." But I have loads of comical favorite arguments that have already been listed ;)
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Stella
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There's definitely a Beauty and the Beast connection. And as far as I remember, George RR Martin pointed that out himself. And we all know how the story ends.
For me one of the coolest things concerning their relationship is that you can turn the Beauty and Beast reference to either one of them in various aspects. And them falling in love in one of the most interesting storylines happening in the books, because of their backgrounds and personalities. I'm sure he wouldn't write the little things most of you mentioned (comments, observations, dreams, ect) for nothing.

Like tamjlee mentioned, Jaime does observe her. You only do that if you're somehow fascinated by that person or you like him/her. You don't observe a more or less random stranger like that. And even if he thought she was ugly at the beginning, you see people differently if you get to know them and spend more time together.
So imo, even if they do not end up together at some point you can't deny there's something that goes beyond platonic.

And Jaime's famous "We don't get to choose who we love" is foreshadowing and since they know more that we do, I take that as a broad hint. When they first met, neither of them would even waste a thought on the possibility that they might get along one day or caring about each other, let alone falling in in love. They both wouldn't "choose" it, but things happen...

So, I really don't get how people can not see that. Maybe they just don't want it to happen, because they want Jaime to be with someone really pretty and girly.
But the funniest argument imo is the brother and sister one. :D
Edited by Stella, Jul 6 2014, 01:17 PM.
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tamjlee
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The thing about Nikolaj in his interviews is he is very good at commenting on the current timeline of the character.So in conversations surrounding the first two seasons he talks of the twincest as a love story.He explains the Bran push by switching up the narrative in how we would feel if J/C were introduced first as this beautiful forbidden, star-crossed lover story when some snot-nosed kid of their enemy spied them.NCW defends Jaime so he defends Jaime's love for Cersei as that for Jaime it is true love.Therefore I can see JC shippers using these interviews as proof that NCW himself ships it.What they fail to see is his opinions shift tk where he is in the storyline, so as Brienne enters Jaime's life, NCW starts discussing the toxicity in JC and the beauty and specialness of J/B.Unfortunately the JC shippers (like all shippers tbh) have rose-coloured shipper goggles and only remember or see his complimentary comments.

I dont have huge issues in shipping JC but my support of those who ship it is limited to when and how they came into the story.So if they read the books when they were first published and saw the pair as the only relationship that was based on choice and romantic love.They were tantalized by the forbidden elements and the sacrifices they had made to be together and they were left to wallow in these opinions up to ten or more years between the publication of the first book until the fourth book when the relationship really starts to unravel, I can almost see why they are reluctant to embrace a different reality.Imagine how it would be for them to be under the impression throughout the first three books that Jaime was fighting to come back to his one true love and then have the author throw in a new character(love interest?) and delusional thoughts and manipulations that weren't explored originally (because Jaime and Cersei were very background and barely interacted in the first two books and weren't pov's).Therefore I can totally see while some JC characters are still clinging to the pairing.However I have no such empathy for JC shippers who have read the series all at once with no down time in between to obsess or show only JC shippers because I think it is abundantly clear that JC is not a relationship to desire ir support.

I dont get a lot of anti-JB arguments but I cant condemn all JC shippers in fact I feel sorry for a few of them who have suffered long and hard for their original ship, but they have to eventually get over it and admit defeat.
Edited by tamjlee, Jul 6 2014, 01:51 PM.
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Chicky
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tamjlee
Jul 6 2014, 01:50 PM
I dont get a lot of anti-JB arguments but I cant condemn all JC shippers in fact I feel sorry for a few of them who have suffered long and hard for their original ship, but they have to eventually get over it and admit defeat.
It's not something I would have shipped, but I'm with you here in feeling badly for some of them. I know there were a few (very, very few) original book Jaime x Cersei shippers. Whether any of them have survived into the current internet JC mania, I don't know...

But, really, the things that would have drawn someone to JC still stand, and can't be touched by JB, so I don't understand where all the vitriol toward JB comes from. You want your crazy star-crossed incest love story? You've got it! Jaime and Cersei were 'making the sex' for at least twenty years, and had three kids together--that's a fully realized love story by any standards, just one that's run its course. And one which shatters under its own weight, rather than being dramatically torn asunder by a new love interest.

I guess many JC shippers deny that JC is breaking apart, which is basically ignoring evidence in the text, but I suppose we all do a certain amount of reading between the lines to our own taste. I just keep coming back to the fact that if JC's love for one another is 'untouchable', why do they care if we ship Jaime with someone else? If he's incapable of loving someone new and the very idea of it is laughable, what's the harm?
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Oh I definitely don't condemn all JC shippers. I understand why it can be appealing to some for entertainment value, while at least acknowledging how crazy it is. And I totally get people shipping Jaime and Cersei early on in the series, since even though it was messed up then as well, they at least seemed to desrve each other because of how horrible thy seemed on the outside. It just changes once you get into the POV and Jaime loses his hand... you get one character maturing and the other going the opposite direction which makes them completely incompatible. I myself find the ship fascinating pre-ASoS, but after reading the later POV chapters I would in no way support it for endgame.

And tamjlee you also make a good point about some book readers shipping it for like a decade before the fall out even happened, so I can see how they can get attached and then want to cling onto it, but sitting in denial and calling JB shippers "gross" and "delusional" is just over the top and I have no sympathy for people who choose to ignore the text. I feel people won't start to wake up until the series ends. There will still be the people twisting everything, but I feel the ending will at least shut up half of the people giving JB shippers crap.
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Currawong
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tamjlee
Jul 6 2014, 01:50 PM
The thing about Nikolaj in his interviews is he is very good at commenting on the current timeline of the character.So in conversations surrounding the first two seasons he talks of the twincest as a love story.He explains the Bran push by switching up the narrative in how we would feel if J/C were introduced first as this beautiful forbidden, star-crossed lover story when some snot-nosed kid of their enemy spied them.NCW defends Jaime so he defends Jaime's love for Cersei as that for Jaime it is true love.Therefore I can see JC shippers using these interviews as proof that NCW himself ships it.What they fail to see is his opinions shift tk where he is in the storyline, so as Brienne enters Jaime's life, NCW starts discussing the toxicity in JC and the beauty and specialness of J/B.Unfortunately the JC shippers (like all shippers tbh) have rose-coloured shipper goggles and only remember or see his complimentary comments.
Yes, when discussing Jaime, Nik is always very careful not to get too far ahead of where the show is in terms of story and character arc. Also, the J/C shippers who try to say that Nik ships J/C haven't understood (or else have just conveniently ignored) the full context of these comments. Invariably, Nik has talked about the J/C love story in response to questions from interviewers about how he as an actor approached his portrayal of Jaime. He was asked to play a character who is in a longstanding incestuous relationship with his sister and tosses a boy out of a window - 'how' did he first understand that character so he could play the role properly. Obviously this is not a situation where an actor can draw on his own RL experiences of a situation, LOL (Nik has even commented about how weird it is, because he has sisters!) so he said he approached Jaime and J/C from the perspective of a love story. Jaime was a man who fell in love with the wrong person in so many ways, but he did love her, or what he understood to be love, and he put the Bran aspect into that context.

Some of the J/B denial amuses me because often those same people will read any amount of subtext into other possible or imagined relationships that they see as 'romantic', yet they can ignore all the obvious J/B hints, especially in later ASOS and AFFC. If those hints had occurred about two other characters, those ships would have sailed with all flags flying! There was also a very interesting remark from Nik about J/B in S4, when he noted that Jaime and Brienne have now both come to respect each other. And that whatever their other conscious or subconscious feelings about each other might be, he thought that mutual respect was a very good foundation for any relationship. Perhaps some of those who deny J/B don't appreciate the fundamental truth of that observation, and want a ship to be 'Hollywood romantic' rather than realistic.

It's one reason why I can understand those who ship Jaime/Catelyn in AUs, because I could see that relationship 'work', in the same way that Cat/Ned developed as their mutual respect and understanding grew.
Edited by Currawong, Jul 6 2014, 06:15 PM.
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glamaphonic
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People definitely get stuck in their ways and I have sympathy for that. My sympathy however runs out for the ones who are habitually nasty about JB shippers like we ran over their dog or something.

That said, if you read just the first two books, the expectation of a JC romance storyline is a reasonable one. I think that once ASOS came out some people were so primed for that that they just ignored it when GRRM introduced the actual storyline. So then they continued on with the erroneous idea that this is a story about Jaime and Cersei's relationship when said relationship actually primarily functions as backstory that informs the characters' actual plotlines. That's why GRRM only writes their relationship in a grand total of like two scenes before it dissolves. And again the dissolved relationship affects and informs both characters but it's not what either of their storylines is ABOUT. Thus Jaime spends 80% of his first POV book with Brienne and most of his second exploring his identity on his quest to be Goldenhand the Just, and Cersei spends her POV obsessing over her prophecy and abortive attempts to rule and take down Margaery.

People tend to confuse the fact (as in the existence) of JC having significant influence on the plot and Jaime and Cersei's characterizations with the relationship in and of itself being a significant storyline, but the only actual plot action in the JC relationship is them breaking up.
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Amaryllis
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Chicky
Jul 6 2014, 02:56 PM
But, really, the things that would have drawn someone to JC still stand, and can't be touched by JB, so I don't understand where all the vitriol toward JB comes from. You want your crazy star-crossed incest love story? You've got it! Jaime and Cersei were 'making the sex' for at least twenty years, and had three kids together--that's a fully realized love story by any standards, just one that's run its course. And one which shatters under its own weight, rather than being dramatically torn asunder by a new love interest.
The problem is that every J/C shipper I've come across so far believes that J/C romance is still a reality in ADWD. For them it's not the past, it's the present. The present that is threatened by the idea of J/B being anything more than friends.
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Sorry if this is already mentioned (too lazy to read the comments again), but another favorite of mine when people argue against it because they really like Brienne and don't want her to be just used as a piece in Jaime's arc. All I see when I read that is, "honestly, I only skimmed her chapters and i ship Jaime with someone else so that's why. I guess I like her because she's cool and badass from what I can tell but that's all I really know."
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Chicky
Kingsguard
I was just doing my daily JB retweets and remembered my favorite anti-JB argument (which isn't an argument)--I see it over and over:


STOP TRYING TO MAKE JAIME/BRIENNE HAPPEN, IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

I think they think we're making it happen? So like, they're arguing against the shippers for bringing the ship to life? We're Frankenstein and Jaime/Brienne is our monster?

:ship:
(^ we made this)
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Almost a Prayer
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Shipper
Honestly, people who don't see all the groundwork laid for a J/B romance in the last three books are either shallow readers, don't care about those particular characters , or simply are in denial. In the first and second cases, it's okay so long as they don't come and tell people how wrong they are about it. Although I'm trying to think deeply about every character, I'll always be more meta and meticulous with my favorite, so I can't blame them.
The third case however puzzles me, and angers me , if truth be told, because their arguments are more often than no rooted in sexism and shallowness. Obviously Jaime can't be in love with Brienne, she's ugly ! Or, even better, to have good conscience, claim that Brienne "deserves better". Newsflash : Brienne deserves whoever the hell she wants, and as it happens she wants him.
Oh, and tell me again how romance ruins her character, please.

Sometimes it annoys me so much I just want to throw copies of ASoS and AFfC in everyone's face
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Amaryllis
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Poisonous Weed
For the "I don't see them ending together" kind of people it's usually just the lack of care, especially regarding Brienne. They seem shocked when you cite some quotes from Brienne's AFFC chapters. Of course there are also people who hate Jaime and want him not only lover-less but preferably dead as soon as possible.

With J/C shippers, it's clearly a case of denial. I've even read the comment of some person who was angry at Jaime for treating Cersei badly in AFFC. How dare he not come to her assistance when she asked him to? She's supposed to be the love of his life!

:laugh:
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